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2005.07.04
Free Speech and Kids...Reader Repartee, I
Subject: Love your site!
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
Someone just pointed me to your site, and I just want to say, I think it rocks!
We need more sites like this... I'm approaching the same kind of thing from a different (but related) direction-- my site is http://www.sex-is-sacred.org.
I was reading a couple of Karynna's essays and had some thoughts about the one about access for kids. I feel pretty strongly about this, although my own kids are grown now (also 2 boys). My observation of them and their friends as they progressed through their growing up was that (just as when I was a boy), smart kids are both interested enough and clever enough to get access to anything that's out there. As a peer group, they just don't care what adults think is "appropriate" for them. Not long ago I was reminded of this again when my wife and I were visiting some old friends and talking with them and their 12-year old daughter (our god-daughter). The subject of sex came up, and one of said that we thought the information available on the internet was just awful. Oh well, remarked our friend, the girl's mother (who is very liberal, extremely intelligent and a long-time feminist), Hollis (her daughter) isn't exposed to that, and she's too young anyway. Hollis, however, spoke up and said that actually, she'd been watching some internet porn at her friend's house just the other day, and it was pretty gross. Why would anybody ever do anything as gross as oral sex?
Not only was the stuff she'd seen pretty incomprehensible to her, but it turned out she had no idea that oral sex was something boys could also do to girls, and that the whole point was that it felt really good.
The thing is, we try to shield kids from the literal, tangible, clinical details of what people do in bed, which they're almost always wildly curious to know about, rightly perceiving that this is one of the touchstones of becoming an adult-- and we fail. What we don't give them, that would be REALLY helpful, is information about WHY you'd ever want to do these things, and all those complicated, embarrassing relationship emotions that go along with the relatively simple clinical stuff. We don't tell them how they can fit these things into their lives so that they don't betray themselves or others. Instead, we force them to discover it all secretly, and it's no coincidence that most people keep it all a secret for the rest of their lives.
When my boys started getting interested in sex in a fairly intense way (12 or 13), and all their friends were covertly reading Penthouse Variations and Hustler or cruising the internet for the "real" scoop, I had a hard time thinking of an alternative that might give them a better, more realistic view of sex...what I ended up giving them was the "Omaha the Cat Dancer" X-rated comic series, which they loved. It has a good story, it shows sex (gay as well as straight) explicitly, but respectfully and in a context where it makes sense and where you can see what the problems are. They still sometimes re-read the series when they come home, not, I think, as masturbatory material, but just because it's such a fun read, and
it does make sex seem natural.
So, I guess where I come out on trying to restrict access for kids is, it doesn't work-- but what we CAN do (and desparately need to do) is provide better alternatives to what they currently find out there. In a sense, that's what your site is about, too. There's none of the misogyny that seems to be so much the norm these days, and bodies are celebrated, not viewed as nasty. Also, the alien thing has the nice effect of putting human bodies in perspective, reducing the power of our culture's obsessive taboos, revealing us as relatively innocent animals. When my kids were in their middle teens, they liked Phil Foglio's
XXXenophile series for many of the same reasons, I think.
Anyway, I salute you folks for wonderful art and a great mind-set! Thanks for all the hard work!
--H. H.
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
Dear H. H.,
Thank you so much for writing in, sharing your compliments and your views! Would you mind if I shared your writing and this response in my discourses?
Thank you also, for sharing your website...I have reviewed it and I hope it is okay with you that I share it on my "new links" page in the near future. I will keep you posted.
I agree with you about the issue of informing our children about sexuality...I very much prefer the approach of open discussion and responsible expectations...especially around preparing youth for the emotional complexities that are bound to arise in their sexual encounters whenever they occur. I will have to check out the "Omaha the Cat Dancer" comic and see what that is all about : )
I personally do not keep my sexual discussion with my boys to the clinical. To me, it is "critical" to their ability for responsible sexuality to help them understand the implications of behaviors they may not be mature enough to accept the consequences for. I give them permission to cope with their natural urges in safe and reasonable ways...but, I don't encourage them to rush into things, either.
I believe, with all things where maturity and responsible behavior are at issue, there is a time and a place--Currently, our culture is not succeeding at helping parents to do that around issues of sexuality, violence, recreational chemicals or "colorful" language. It is one thing for a parent to decide it is time for exposure or for an intelligent child to actively seek it out...but, it is another for our "public" media to actively expose "everyone" to concepts that many parents might want to hold off on a bit.
We all know there is a natural curiosity that comes with the territory of growing up...but, as parents we ought to have the rights, wisdom and control to determine our children's readiness and provide them with environments and resources for safe learning. I wish our culture would effectively support us in that goal. But, it does not! So, I have decided it IS in the best interests of my children to arm them with awareness, education and resources AND to keep a good eye on them.
What seems the fundamental challenge, to me, is that open-minded progressive thinkers like you and me MUST exist in a world where there are lots of conservative-minded traditional thinkers. They obviously feel as strongly and righteously in their positions to delay and control the information their children receive about nudity and sexuality as we do about sharing it.
What forum of educational discussion or demonstration is going to open all people to an evolving view? How should such a mission be accomplished?
As long as the cautious conservative feels as if the adventurous liberal is "forcing" a POV down their puritan throat...resistance and defensiveness will be their response--as it is pretty much anyone's response when it is felt something is being forced upon them.
So, in our Democracy...where the Might of the Majority is what makes Right...when the Conservative Agenda represents that majority--their fear, resistance and defensiveness turns into our Nation's Censorship and Regulation. I wish the Progressive Cause would behave with a higher demonstration of voluntary and effective self-regulation. Instead, they seem to get sucked into modes of destructive resistance, also. Did our experience with Prohibition teach us anything?
Having thought this thru heavily, I find these issues very difficult to resolve. I want the freedom as a parent to educate and expose my children at my discretion...which I basically do. But, I do not appreciate that my children are "forced" into dealing with XXX spam mail and pop-ups against my will or that I might feel "forced" into wasting my time and money on tools that don't work very well at minimizing inappropriate materials while permitting information I don't mind my kids having access to.
I don't want to cover the artistic breast of the Justice sculpture in our Federal Court House or the genitals of Michaelangelo's "David," but I don't want to expose Janet Jackson's photographed tit thru a sex-suggestive song and dance to an unprepared set of 9 year olds and their parents watching a ball game, either. I do not want to prevent women from discreetly nursing their babies wherever they want to and I would prefer that reverence for nudity was demonstrated thru its celebration rather than its suppression. But, I don't need to force my views on others or disrespect their concepts of modesty and virginity any more than I want them to force their views on me. I wouldn't mind seeing a greater "public" respect for depictions of violence, expressions of raw language and chemical recreation, also. So, as ADULTS how do we REALLY take responsibility for drawing the line on these things?
You'd think education would actually be the fuel for transformation on these issues. Maybe it will be eventually, but it seems to demand a great deal of patience. I am baffled that we are "still" debating the presentation of "Creation Belief" in our "Science" Classes. Alas, for Ages, our History reveals a swinging pendulum between sexual open-ness and suppression--with each culture trying to deal with the beliefs and consequences of
their paradigms. Have we learned anything, yet? I believe we have, but it seems painfully slow going.
I hope the work of our websites will serve in our goals of Self-Reflection, a Quicker Education and bring some Sense of Wisdom to OUR culture so that OUR generation can be the one that finds a Healthy and Responsible Balance on this issue...
Thanks again and Sweetest Wishes,
Karynna
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
Dear Karynna,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my mail so articulately and in such depth.
Please feel free to post our correspondence in full or in part as you wish,
and of course I'd be honored if you linked to my site.
I understand the political issues you are referring to; nonetheless, I believe
that on a certain level, they're irrelevant. I grew up in the 1950s, when you
could go to jail for having photographs that that showed pubic hair,
but as a 6th grader, I remember seeing terribly naughty pictures of very
old (18- or 19-year-old) women standing naked on a New Jersey beach.
These photos were literally illegal at that time, as much so as drugs, but
there we were passing them around amongst ourselves in wonder. Friends
of mine found ways of watching uncles' or other family members' 8mm hard-core
films in garages. Not to mention, of course, all the experimentation that can
go on with other people's actual bodies.
I think the best antidote to all the stupid and mean-spirited information that
kids will find in "adult" material these days, as I said before, is to make the
information that kids really want easily available. Who cares if they see naked
bodies, or people having sex, as long as they want to? What matters is that
they understand the context in which nakedness and sex make sense.
In most parts of Europe, anyone who wants to can go to any beach and see
real people naked quite unselfconsciously. Doesn't seem to harm kids at all.
In Italy, where I've spent a lot of time, you can walk down most beaches to
the naked end and see families with small children and grandparents, all
without bathing suits. Naked breasts often appear on billboards-- sure they're
sexy, but sexy is considered a normal part of life. These are places, unlike
America, where sex by force is quite unusual.
My boys, like their contemporaries, had access to all kinds of rather nasty
porn that my wife and I really didn't like. Rather than telling them not to
look at it (which, in my observation, merely ensures that kids don't talk to their
parents about the stuff), we tried to find them information that satisfied
their curiosity while also providing decent models of behavior and emotional
context. Neither one of them jumped into sex early-- in fact, in both cases,
they started out later than almost all of their friends-- in part, I think, because
they didn't feel there was some big secret they were missing out on.
I feel that we're doing a big disservice to kids (especially boys, who become
SO horny around 12 or 13, as I clearly remember from my own childhood),
by not providing them access to positive erotic materials when they want them
(I'm emphatically not suggesting forcing information on them at any point!).
One of the biggest challenges any of us faces is coping with sexual energy as
a developing youth and integrating it into our lives in a positive way. I think we
could offer a lot more support and encouragement there!
Anyway, you can see I feel strongly about this, not least because I suspect
that the horrendous incidence of forced sex in this country results directly from our
treatment of young boys and their attempts to date in high-school.
Thanks again for your really wonderful art, and your kind words.
Yours, --H.
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT)
Hello Again, H.
I have to say, I absolutely agree with the points you make. And I very much hope that we can eventually bring the whole world in the direction of these perspectives and behaviors...sooner, rather than later. I am very much in your corner, both in thought and personal demonstration...so, I hope you will forgive me if I suggest the political issues ARE at the heart of relevance, at least for me and my wish to do business without oppression and with the same legitimacy as the art gallery up the street.
How do we have and demonstrate our perspective on these issues and peacefully coexist with the more reserved perspective...especially, when they seem to represent the Power in our country?
I am sad that my kids have friends who are not permitted at our house because we have nude art (not sex art) displayed in our home. I am frustrated that I am not able to announce what I do for a living with pride and without concern for social ostracism or harassment by our law. I am grateful that Playboy TV can do an interview with us but am baffled when I realize that the majority of our explicit and "on the edge" content is not suitable for display or even discussion on their "subscription channel."
I guess "breaking the law" is a way to get what one wants...but it can be a pretty risky cost to pay for the one making the stand and getting caught. Such tactics worked for the Rosa Parks' Cause (but, not without great pain)...however, these strategies did not seem to benefit people like Dr. Kavorkian or Gays desiring to Marry...both causes, I am very much in favor of. In fact, it lead to proposals for State Constitutional Amendments and other votes against Gay Unions in several states--including my very liberal Oregon. What do you think about the recent Supreme Court conclusion that Federal Law trumps all State Law for medicinal marijuana use? Are you aware of several adult entertainment businesses being harassed into bankruptcy thru years in defensive litigation...while not breaking any laws, but simply being accused by some nosey, but powerful, neighbor?
Really, is this the way we would aspire to change among supposedly civilized, mature and rational adults? Perhaps, there really is no other way...but, it reminds me of children.
Will any amount of the very fine rational perspective you have offered change the minds of those with the God-fearing determination to see their perspective as not being one of suppression but as one of respect and honor for the sacred? Do you think our sites are reaching these people or are we merely preaching to the choir? I gotta tell you I get a lot of "repent and find God" mail. Obviously, they don't have clue how well I get along with God.
Again, it is a very different thing when I offer my children information or when they are smart enough to hunt it down for themselves...very different from when an innocent and ignorant 7 year old gets bombarded with an explicit gang bang pop-up while playing on the internet. Will they be injured by such imagery? I do not think so. But, it is a topic that can wait for them to have exposure to? I think, yes. That is the force I speak of...and I want that changed.
I will get this conversation composed and let you know when it is up on the site...so that I can get your blessing. Thank you very much for the exchange and any other comments you might share...as you can guess, I am pretty passionate about all this, also : )
Sweetest, Karynna
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:31:49 -0700 (PDT)
Dear Karynna,
I agree with what you say about the politics, but the question for
me is how to change them. I believe they're irrelevant only in the sense
that people will be fixated on erotic art and imagery regardless
of the political climate.
I think that the best way to change those politics is to give people
better art. Words won't touch most people, but beauty almost
always does.
Maybe I'm an idealist, but I believe what has created the current
porn ghetto is a kind of vicious circle-- most whitebread
Americans don't buy porn regularly (I don't buy mainstream stuff myself).
The people who buy porn regularly are people who are desperate to
see it-- mostly single men who are terrified of relationships. I've known
a few guys like this, who are willing to spend more than half their income
in strip bars getting lap dances, and who don't mind spending $80 for a
videotape. So, as a result, the porn industry mainly revolves around
people who are afraid of most of the things that make sex beautiful
to the rest of us. Such people don't want to see a lot of emotion, they
want clinical iconography. The resulting product is not something most people
take much pleasure in watching-- it's all too easy to condemn. In fact, it
expresses and justifies our culture's negative attitudes towards sex.
I believe that if we created more compelling erotic art, we could change
that. Everybody in the world is interested in sex-- and we're all afraid
of it too. How about treating it as a real subject, not glossing over the
hard parts-- how about showing how you can integrate it into life?
If the material were sexy at the same time, people (especially young men)
would buy it to jerk off to, and the beauty of it would linger on after they came
(I can't imagine that with 99% of current porn). The messages would get
through, and people would find it easier to admit to each other that they
liked that kind of thing.
Anyway, that's my current approach. My sex-is-sacred site is an attempt
to provide a bit of an intellectual umbrella for sex-positive attitudes, but I
have no illusion that it will change much. I do think, though, that if I can
succeed in making some really beautiful art-porn that is both compelling,
fun and positive, it can have an impact. As they say, though, art is long
and life is short...
By the way, I had meant to send you a link for the Omaha series:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=s_sf_b_as/103-6285931-1559866
(I guess a number of them are out of print... I've gotten them in the past
through http://www.eroscomix.com/ or Fantagraphics).
All the best! --h
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:50:56 -0700 (PDT)
Hello H,
I guess we might have to have a friendly disagreement over the "political relevance" of this issue...I wonder if your perspective would change any if you were trying to make a living thru erotic entertainment and had to meet up with all the challenges involved. The elevated beauty of explicit sexuality tends to get labeled "wolves in sheep's clothing." We, here at Pornotopia.com, are very experienced in having what we think is beautiful and redeeming erotic fantasy...censored-- to the scale of making a living at it very difficult and not feeling the right of free speech.
Political support for alcohol and abortion changed things for Americans. It said that responsibility rests with the Citizen and not the State. I believe this is true for the issue of Pornography and Erotic Art, also.
Access to Children is the Most convenient argument the Evangelical Movement can use to support their Cause for Sexual Censorship (because, I believe, it has an 'element' of legitimacy to it). But, the same can be said for Alcohol, so I am wondering...Could we let the Evangelicals feel they have the protections they want and then move on to having what we want because their beef has been muted? Would the Political sanction allow our demonstration with Explicit Erotic Art to build a case of evidence for its benefit and benign-ness to our Society? I think it would.
My point is that it is the broader Ideal of our American Constitution is to expect that the Responsible Adult is where these decisions should be regulated--and not the State. Children should find themselves being Nurtured by Parents and a Culture that deems them Intelligent and Capable of joining the ranks of Adulthood thru confronting the complex truths in the ever evolving ethical issues they face and demonstrating an ability to be Free "and" Responsible to themselves and our community...
Thank you so much again for the exchange!
Best wishes on your endeavors, Karynna
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